Natalie Franke
What does it really take to run a multi seven figure business as a photographer and educator? Today on the podcast, I have the honor of chatting with a friend of mine and also one of the most world renowned photographers in my lifetime. Caitlin James. She is a trailblazer, a trendsetter. And she has built a business that generates over $250,000 every single month. But we all know that’s not the whole story. In this conversation, we pull back the curtain, we talk about what it truly takes to make that sort of revenue. Day in and day out this episode, you don’t want to miss. Hey, everyone, this is your host, Natalie Frank, and you’re listening to the independent business podcast, more people than ever are working for themselves and building profitable businesses in the process. So on this show, I sit down with some of the most influential authors, entrepreneurs and creators to break down the science of self made success so that you can achieve it.
Natalie Franke
There was a CNBC article that recently came out and I want to start us there because when I read the headline, it’s it’s something along the lines, have, you know, this person side hustles for hours a day and makes what a quarter of a million dollars a month? $250,000 a month? What it said, I think something in that realm thing crazy. And the minute I saw it, I was like, that’s not that’s not the whole that’s not capturing the whole story. No. So I want to kind of just start there for a second and say you you’ve built something really beautiful, you’ve built something really incredible, that should be celebrated. What is it? What are we what?
Katelyn James
Yes, first of all that article was, I was so honored, want to have something worthy of CMBC being like, yeah, we want to talk about that. That’s crazy. But it was also the first time I had ever shared with the world. What my life was actually like, and it started with a headline that was all about the money. And you know, that’s what makes people click and I get it. That’s, you know, that’s the industry they’re in. But what was maybe a misconception was that my story goes way. We’re talking 14 years back. And my entrepreneurial journey goes 14 years back. Actually, my entrepreneurial journey goes even further back than that. And so the time, thought, tears, the heartache, the bad decisions, the unhealthy seasons in our marriage, when my workaholism just took over, none of that played out into that story. So you’re seeing literally the most shiny, impressive part of me, almost minimizing what it took to create it. And I’m not mad at them. I mean, I did a podcast episode of my own, talking about the realities of you know, just that wasn’t truly a good representation of me.
Natalie Franke
So entrepreneurs, business owners will hear something like you know, you’re making almost a quarter of a million a month and immediately we know yes, that’s not profit. That’s revenue. Yeah. Even hit a number like that. You know, there must be a lot of ads, you’re running, there’s paid spent, there’s employees, you’re paying their health insurance. Yes. None of that is foreign to us. We know that right? But you know, an article goes out and the reporter wants the juicy bits. It’s gonna get the average person to click and think how is this mom making that much money four hours a day? I want to do it right now this moment. She must have started right now this moment.
Katelyn James
Surely that’s it? Surely it was like a Yeah, yeah. Found the thing sold the thing made the money.
Natalie Franke
But what was the first entrepreneurial dollar you ever made? Where did this truly begin? What were the humble beginnings of this seven figure business start?
Katelyn James
So the first business was Caitlin’s crafts, Caitlin’s crafts with two K’s that’s very important because that’s when I really started getting creative with whole the whole marketing thing. Like, how can I have a cool name, not just a boring name, right. So Caitlin’s crafts with two K’s I bought a dish from Walmart 40 cents, painted it, sold it at craft stores, and made like 40 bucks off of it. And that honestly was It was nothing financially impressive. But I watched people buy something that I created. And that I came up with, you know, I sketched ideas. And then I painted them. And then I watched it was like my first experience thinking through themes, collections, even like I was really into. And I just realized, like, I could get paid for things I could create that blows my mind. So what’s crazy is the EIN number of that business that was bringing in $1,000 a year just enough to have to pay taxes right is the same EIN number. I just transferred it to Caitlin Jay’s photography that now spends $1,000 a day on Facebook ads. Wow, it’s crazy. How so that that was the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey. But I also I went to craft shows with my dad, he would sit there for hours with me. And I’d go home and I didn’t sell a single plane. And for some reason, I kept going. And I was still it was like, it just opened this small door for me, I got my foot in to the taste of being an entrepreneur, and I couldn’t stop. And that I needed other things that flopped. Like I was paid hourly to do your booking for this random mom, I was like a year, I was a scrapbooker. That was a complete waste of my time. And I learned though, through that experience, why hourly rates matter why you cannot if you can’t speed this up, you can’t charge more, you can’t do it. It’s not a sustainable business. So I’m just at in my, you know, 16 year old space of a bedroom, I’m destroying my carpet. I actually did a blog post on this destroyed my parents carpet being creative. And I remember apologizing, like, Mom, I’m sorry, like it’s destroyed the paints all the way through to the sub floor, like Sorry, but now I’ve hired my mom. And she’s been working for us for six years. And my goal is to get this woman to retirement age, and to be able to allow her to be a paid grandma taking care of her grandchildren, while I run this business. So my entrepreneurial beginning started in my room as a high schooler, and shout out to my parents for letting me pursue it. They truthfully, and I could learn a lot from this, like my, my daughter was mourning, through sequins all over the floor. And I’m like, cleaning up. She’s like, but it look, it looks like we’re in Narnia. And I’m like, okay, so I should learn from my parents. They let me be creative. They let me pursue hard things. They taught me how to pay sales tax on my very, very small amount of profit. And they aren’t entrepreneurs themselves. But they were like in the journey with me. And now it has led to a multimillion dollar business that now employs both of them. I employed my dad starting this year, and he’s doing maintenance work for the school. We started for our kids. I mean, it’s all encompassing, and it started there.
Natalie Franke
What I love about that as well, is that you when you said I would go to craft shows, and no one would buy a single thing nothing. And yet I kept going. Yes. How many people at the first sign of friction, potential failure, or what the world might perceive as failure? Yes, stop.
Katelyn James
Yes, all the time. And how much does that still happen to me? Even now, because I just relaunched something recently that did fine. Ish. But it wasn’t KJ great, right. It wasn’t at my level of what I it did not even get close to hitting the mark. And my team has had to back me away from the ledge of like, Caitlin, you got to keep going like you. So yes, KJ 1.0 kept going when I was failing as a young entrepreneur. But that is a that’s a decision you have to continue to make. It’s not a you failed and you kept going and that’s just who you are Caitlyn forever as entrepreneur, you will always keep going. No, I have wanted to stop so many times. But I think the foundations of that you know what that taught me sitting at a craft show selling a $40 plate next to someone selling tie dyed T shirts that were 12 bucks. I learned about markets, I learned about audiences I learned about I gotta find my people. My people weren’t at the Podunk craft shows. They were buying from boutiques. So I went to a boutique and I started selling to a boutique, because that’s where people pay 40 bucks for hand painted bowl. People at a craft show in the middle the country don’t want a hand painted bowl. They want something cheap and easy. And don’t take all my money, right? They didn’t appreciate me so. So I think back in the day, I learned lessons like, I’ve got to find my brand. Who am I I’m in the wrong place. I’m selling hand painting hand painted bowls, to people that could care less about handling a bolt. So those failures taught me something every single one of them. But even to this day, two months ago, I’m still having to revisit the thought of I’ve got to choose to start again, that did not go well. Like that launch was not what I wanted it to be. I feel like I’m floundering. I feel like I’m you know, I’m a multimillionaire business owner and I still am making poor decisions and I’m still not getting it right. But then I try again and I do
Natalie Franke
I love that and from from those beginnings I don’t want to miss the moment at which so many people really did start to see your progress and like discover you so to speak. Which I feel like there have been multiple iterations but you then move from that into photography. Yes. And college in college. Tell us a little bit about that. And you know, you became a photographer you worked. What were you doing that while going to school at the same time? Yes, you’re taking classes and chats
Katelyn James
when I started to develop my under eye circles never went away. I remember telling my mom, I think I need to get an eye doctor because for some reason my eyes are so dark and she’s like honey, you’re not sleeping. That’s why I started shooting Oh headshots on campus. Then I got into weddings. And then I, I mean, my college friends would leave and go to like our friends river house on the weekend and be like, you’re coming, right? And I wouldn’t go. I was editing, I was shooting, I was making $2,500 in a day. And I remember when my checks would come to that dorm room, we lived in a house, but when it came to the college house, they’d be on the table and be like, Guys, I just got another deposit. And at the time, the deposit would be anywhere from 250 to 500, or maybe even 1500 If they got her big package. And my college roommates thought that was insane that I got a check from someone for $1,500. And I was going to be getting more from them. Once I shot the wedding, like right before the wedding. So I remember just I was living in two worlds. I was living in the carefree college world where you’re not responsible for anything. And life is just a free for all right, and acting like a very responsible small business owner. And I enjoyed it. It was there was a tension there for sure. I and I sacrifice there’s relationships that we still talk about now that like Where were you are junior senior year you weren’t around, and I wasn’t I was working. But I am almost 15 to 20 years ahead of a lot of my peers. There’s a cost. A huge cost. There’s a cost. Yes.
Natalie Franke
Right. Yeah. But to the headline we love to celebrate. I think very often we don’t acknowledge that. Yeah. Because I had a very similar experience to I started my business out of high school and throughout college. You know, I was the one where they just stopped inviting me Yes. Oh, because they knew I was going to be taking the train home to work that so single week, and
Katelyn James
then a bummer when you’re like, and I’m seeing things that I didn’t even get a text about. I used to get a text about these things.
Natalie Franke
And when I would ask, you know, it’s like, oh, no, but we knew you’d be too busy.
Katelyn James
Yeah. And you have to be like, you’re right. I still want to be invited, though.
Natalie Franke
I know that there is a cost is it’s a hard cost. Yeah. And it doesn’t necessarily even go away. It just changes I think, as you grow in business. Would you agree with that?
Katelyn James
Yes. Oh, it definitely it. It evolves into something new. And I think what was hard, and I’ve actually never put these pieces together until now. But I think the sacrifice for me once I got married, it seemed like Well, now, all those friends that I’m living with, like the pressures not right in front of me. But what I didn’t realize is that my workaholism and my, you know, and that makes it sound bad. It was bad. I was addicted to getting stuff done. But there’s, there’s a healthy way to do that. And there’s a grind and a a hustle phase that has to happen, right? I think instead of it being Oh, I’m not hanging out with college friends, I wasn’t aware of what I was missing out with Michael. In our newlyweds, it was more. It was easier to say, hey, I’ll be down in an hour to watch our show. And then three hours later, he’s in bed and I’m like, Oh, it’s okay. He was tired. But as someone who feels loved by quality time, that was a miss. And I didn’t realize it was a miss until we had extreme disconnection. Because that was our pattern. One more minute, turns into 30. Just a quick, I need like an hour, and then I’ll be done. And then he’s moved on to something else. Like he’s in bed, or he’s he’s like, Oh, I’m just gonna go like meet my family do something that we went through years of that, and where he very clearly didn’t feel like the priority. I said, once, I don’t think we should go on vacation. Like, I’ll just get so behind. And to this day, that comes up, that conversation comes up. And we’ve spent five, six years pouring into our marriage, because not because anything got scary close, like we were never, nothing serious was going to happen. But it was serious in that underlying he didn’t feel important because my business was so important. And so that is that’s a sacrifice I made. And I’m not proud of that sacrifice. There’s other sacrifices I am proud of like, you know, I am consistent. And I stayed with my systems and they paid off. Super proud of that. Not proud of when it started to affect my family. So can you grow something that’s big? And just have to say like, I’m just going to be unhealthy if I’m going to have something as big as what she’s built? No, I think there were ways that I could have been more aware because I’m doing it now. Right? And yes, it’s at scale, but I’m constantly innovating and I’m still creating content and I’m still doing things, but it does look very different than she works four hours a day and there she yet multimillionaire just happens like no, there’s a lot of backstory there.
Natalie Franke
Well, when you brought up you know, you even had a moment where you’re like, I can’t go we shouldn’t go on vacation because I’m going to fall behind. When you’re saying that. I got the feeling that you were thinking that’s something that you’re like, I can’t believe I did that. That’s a universal I hear it all the time in the world. Do I hear business owners all the time, I just saw our friend hope post,
Katelyn James
I just saw this took her laptop on our honeymoon, she almost
Natalie Franke
took her laptop on her honey, so proud of you hope that you didn’t do that. I’m so proud of you. But all of your older sisters would be like Cofrin. Don’t do what we did. We’ll call you out on that. But the truth is, every business owner, I believe, is even in seasons of success. It is hard for us to find the line between where the business starts and ends. And where we start and end. It is hard for us to feel like we can put it down it is hard. Because when it isn’t just a job, meaning I’m not just clocking in and clocking out, but it’s a piece of my identity. It’s linked to my greater purpose. Yes, I see it being a legacy I’m going to leave behind.
Katelyn James
That’s hard. It is hard. It’s almost easier to say, I’m just going to have this nine to five job that pays the bills, but at least my identity is separate. How do you do this whole thing? Where your purpose in a lot of weight? No, I’m a mother. And that is my deeper, that’s my calling in life. But I also have another call I have I’m like a multifaceted, purposeful person, which we all are, how do you run a business that impacts lives, and does have a part of who you are built into it? Right? It sometimes seems like, well, maybe I should just do something. I don’t care about that deeply. Because this is so hard to balance. I get it. I lived it. It’s one of the pain points that the article didn’t hit on and it couldn’t hit on that. Right. Right. That’s the thing about the article was, it was my first introduction to the world of Hey, guys, my business is bigger than you think. Oh my gosh, I’m so embarrassed. But should I be embarrassed? No. But part of not being embarrassed is explaining I worked so hard to get here. Right? And the sacrifice was deep and it was wide. And I can’t fit all that into an article. So
Natalie Franke
and it can so quickly lead to burnout. Yes. Is that something that you have experienced in your business? Yes, let’s talk about
Katelyn James
it many times. I, I think my burnout in my business is happened multiple times. But there was one season where it was intense to the point where I said, I have nothing left to give. Like I have nothing left in me. And that was two years ago. It was in August, actually, I was feeling this way leading up to it. So August is a month that I decided to take off my coach was basically like, you aren’t allowed to say, definitely, I have nothing left to give when you haven’t created a space to even determine if that’s true. And and during the season of burnout. What I realized was that burnout came from believing a lot of reoccurring thoughts, soundtracks patterns in my life that weren’t necessarily true. So like, for example, one storyline that I told myself was, it’s all on me, it is all on me. My whole family depends on me. If I don’t create something new, everyone’s gonna suffer. Bite my mom and dad’s health insurance. Like if my mom is gonna be able to pay for her foot surgery, which he desperately needs. The health insurance bill comes to me and the business pays like it is an incredible amount of pressure. And I let that just overtake me. And then my coach was so great. She was like, Caitlin, let’s just unravel that one soundtrack that you have. Is it actually true? I’m like, yes. It’s called Caitlin James photography. It’s true. It’s my face, I have to show up. And she said, Do you know how to log into the backend of your business? And I said, No. And she said, so you’re probably selling courses right now, as we’re talking. If that system breaks or disconnects or something, are you going to fix it? And she was like, I said, No, I’m, I don’t even know how to miss my sister’s job. She’s like, right? So is it true that it is 100% on you the way you make money? Is that all on you? It’s actually not accurate. But it is a story that I believe because my brain wants to prove that I’m right. Like I because then I get to sit in the victim story. Like Woe is me. I don’t know what else to do, but that I got stuck there for so long. And I needed someone to help me unravel what is true and what is not. And that was not true. So then I moved on to the next story. And the next story that I made up that was not true was that people have such high expectations of me. And I can’t live up to him. So when she told me when our coach was like, just you need to take a month off, minimum month long sabbatical do not work. You need this. Your body’s telling you your mind is telling you you need this. So it took a month off. And I thought our students are going to be so upset. I’m not going to be in the Facebook group. I’m not going to be responding to their comments. I’m not going to create content for them. Our YouTube stats are going to plummet. I’m not I believe all these things. Well, what else could be possible? Well, everyone in our community praised me. The thing that I thought was gonna make me seem like I don’t care was the thing that my audience needed from me. They started saying things like, I needed to see you take a break because I watch everything you do. You work so hard. You get If you’re giving yourself a break gave me permission to take a break. So, so the full story of burnout for me is that you can sit in this place of, I’ve got nothing left to give. And in the very statement of saying, I’ve got nothing left to give, the reality is me listening to what I needed, was releasing freedom for an entire community of people, and releasing freedom to me, I came back from that month off with so many ideas that my team was overwhelmed with me. They left, I walked away them being like, Oh, she’s losing it, she’s done this, we’re gonna shut the whole ship down. And I came back on fire again. And I, it just goes to show like our minds are powerful, we can convince ourselves of absolutely anything. And then we subconsciously look for ways to confirm that we are true that we’re right about all of our thoughts about ourselves. And if you just step away for a minute, you start to realize there’s a lot more there. I wasn’t done. I was on it. Quite honestly, I think I’m just getting started. I love that. Yeah.
Natalie Franke
I love that. Confirmation bias is so powerful. You’re right, you will find what you look for. Yes. And if you are looking for a T shirt, yeah, you will. Yeah. If you’re looking for evidence for why you’re falling behind or falling short or not able to live up to these expectations that I call it the shoulds. I hate the word show. Yeah, who you should be how you should Yes, shaming, you’re gonna see it everywhere. You see evidence for that everywhere. But the same is true of the opposite as well. Yes. Right is a maturity of the opposite.
Katelyn James
Yes, we were recently talking about this with our communities freaking out about AI. Right. Yeah. And so I’m trying to help in our, in my personal growth, this has been the story of my life. As I grow personally, I just duplicate that into who I’m pouring into as a business owner. So what’s interesting is, when you’re burned out, you’re normally not growing. So then when you’re not growing, you have no content to share. It’s just a vicious cycle. And you have to stay healthy in order to be able to help be a healthy leader. So they’re talking about AI, and I just did a podcast episode where I talked about how the opportunity that AI gives us an opportunity to check your mindset. Because for me, I’m like, Oh, my gosh, looking at this stuff. I’m like, Yeah, I think our industry is going down the hole like it’s going to be trashed. But then I realized, you know, what, what if another possibility, another soundtrack to believe would be that AI is going to make people desperate for authenticity? And what am I good at? What did people said that I’m good at? I mean, I hope I’m good at it. People have said before, that authenticity is one of the reasons why they love learning from me. So if authenticity is going to be the rarity in our industry, then maybe there’s actually a lot of opportunity for growth. But that mindset about just a simple concept like AI, it comes back to where’s your headspace? And and do you have the tools to be able to break down the soundtracks, these lies that you’re believing? So one of the greatest things I’ve learned as a business owner, that’s growing and innovating and burning out and then coming back is the tool of being able to parent my own thoughts to take your thoughts captive, which we’ve we’ve talked about before, like, how can you actually grab hold of a thought and not let it spiral? Right? And that sounds I’m not going down the train of like, just manifest whatever you want, it will happen. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying a human being that is driven, has to be a human being that can control what happens up here. We are in control. I know sometimes in rare circumstances, it you get in the loop, we’ve experienced that in our own family, right? Where you need some help to get the Yes, you’ve got to have to help. So there are some situations where it gets out of control. But for me, I had the power to pull myself back in. And I needed someone to teach me how to do that. And I and they did. So crazy.
Natalie Franke
I love that and with the AI thing too. I mean, it’s it’s so interesting. I was listening to you speak recently about the subnet. You know, we talked about you built a wedding photography business. You should Caitlin actually photograph my wedding. For folks. I
Katelyn James
know, way back. We just celebrated our 10 year anniversary. Okay, I have this is this is an idea have don’t lose your train of thought. I was like that was so long ago. I love your bread odd or something. They’re beautiful, but they’re way too warm. A couple of times to re edit them for you. I am gonna do it for YouTube episode. I’m probably like one of the
Natalie Franke
AI tools. Do it have imagined ai do it perfect partner with them and make it hard for you to that’s great. Oh my gosh, no, it was a beautiful day. It was a great day. But that was 10 years ago. So you built this amazing, you know, photography business. You moved into education. You’ve been doing education. And that really is kind of the the core of where this article came from. You’ve experienced the seasons of burnout, but you really have built something exceptional. And I remember reading something there’s like two things I want to touch on one you said you know this education world it changes every six months, every six months. There’s something new coming out. Yes. And I Think that we often overlook the need as independent business owners to be open to change? Oh, it’s hard. It is hard and AI really became, you know, it almost I think illuminated for us not that change is an inevitable part of life. Because we know that if you run a business, right, you know that yes, but that the rate of change, the pace of change is about to accelerate to a degree that perhaps we’ve never experienced, or Yes, like, do you remember when we were photographing weddings back in the beginning and we needed a map? To get to the wedding?
Katelyn James
Yes. And if you don’t have your printed out map, how are you going to get there?
Natalie Franke
You couldn’t. And then we got Mapquest or we found old we do we sound ancient. So you could at one point, you could actually print out the street by street turns, but if you missed an intersection, Oh, yeah. Good luck. Your heart would be sweating. Yeah, I would be shaking. I was like, that’d be anxiety came from it. It was an absolutely so much MapQuest, I’m gonna send you a bill for my therapy, my last round of therapy. But but the truth is, like, I never could have Fathom at that point that I would have a cell phone in my pocket that would not only route me to a place I’m going, but then if there’s a speed trap, it would tell me, Oh, if there’s traffic, it would give me a different way to get there. My point being Yes, change is inevitable. Oh, yes. And the rate of it’s increasing, but the mindset you have about it is what I’m hearing from you. It’s the mindset and what you’re telling yourself, whether it’s AI, whether it’s new tech tools, whether it’s Yeah, new equipment that’s coming out, oh, it is
Katelyn James
so easy. It’s easy to default to fear, yes. Because fear is rooted in self protection. And we are as humans, we want to self protect. And so instead, so we, it’s got to be a choice. There’s not a lot of people that choose to trust and to be innovative. First, our mind goes, my mind went to fear first. I’m like, if I shoot a wedding a big spring, and my clients are like, I want an AI generated Rocky Mountain background, not Blue Ridge mountain background. I mean, if people start doing that, then house buddy, who owns the business owns a wedding venue? What’s he going to do when people come and say, where are these mountains? Right? That’s crazy. That was my first thought. Interesting. But now, now that I’ve set taking a step back, and like, how can I use this in not in negative ways in positive ways, there’s gotta be a way. And that’s when I had the thought of like, if people are going to start craving authenticity, then maybe our art as photographers will actually be something people seek out. I think there will be people that will say, No, I want it to really look like my wedding. Genuinely. We’ve seen
Natalie Franke
that throughout history, if you even think about the fact that Gen Z loves record players and film cameras. Yeah. And they’re like, now there are even digital cameras that are coming out that create digital images that automatically look like film to give you my point being we do crave what is real, we will always crave what is real. And so I also err on the side of believing that we’re AI is going to be really beautiful. This is what I tell myself is that it’s going to allow us to be more human. Yeah, what it will actually do. Yeah, is give us if we choose Yeah, and we have to this is also why we’ve got to be leaning into it because it doesn’t just we’re not at a stage where it’s creating itself, humans are creating it, right. So if you’re not engaging with new technology, you’re also not able to lead the conversations about it, you’re not able to react and help build it. But the point being that my hope is, AI is going to be something that actually enables us to be more human. And those business owners and independents in particular, while certain jobs will change, while the roles we do day to day will shift, right? And they already are shifting right. The experiences that we create the beauty and the humaneness that only we can offer this world will be even more valuable.
Katelyn James
Oh, 100%. Yes. And if you start to view it from that perspective, it’s exciting. It’s not intimidating. Right.
Natalie Franke
Right. It is exciting. I mean, even gosh, we’re announcing, you know, we just announced by the time this, this comes out that, you know, our development team in HoneyBook has been building AI tools. And one of the tools that they’ve been working on now for over a year is a predictive leads tool where our technology can actually tell you what leads are going to book you before you’ve even responded to them. Oh my gosh, like when I tell you so like a predictive lead can tell you it’s like two times more profitable. If we flag it 30% That the stat is just out. We’ll link in the show notes. But my point being, it’s also going to help you as the business owner to stop having to do things that you shouldn’t be doing. Like you talked about systems multiple times and how you’ve built this. Yes, yeah. And I want to lean into that a little bit, too. I heard a little rumor. And by that I mean, I know when you launched your first course. Yes. Now you had been building systems to do this. Yeah. And that’s what I want to make sure we click on here for years and years and years. But when you launched your first course, or do did over you did six figures on your first course launch.
Katelyn James
Yes, in a weekend. I think we did like 70 grand in the first like few hours was insane. And this was not recently this was 2015 Okay, maybe even 2014. So back in the day. That was big money back then.
Natalie Franke
It’s pretty open up at that point. Yes. Oh, we that on a course launch.
Katelyn James
Oh, it was unheard of. And I mean, I was shocked. I mean, I joke about my dad opened the door and like, Daddy, I think I made $70,000 Like in the last hour, and he’s like, you’ve been duped, you, you this is not real. People can’t do that, right. But that came from, I always tell people that want to be educators, you have to either be. But there’s two things, the two to two G’s, you’ve got to you’ve got to be great at what you do, you’ve got to master it, you’ve got to be amazing, exceptionally great at what you do. Because if you don’t do exceptionally well, you don’t have content to share that’s going to innovate and help you just going to regurgitate what someone else has already taken teaching. So you got to be great at what you do. And you have to be able to give. And if you’re able to give and you enjoy giving if you are a giver, you will be an extremely successful educator. And that’s what I did for eight years. I was consistently blogging and giving and giving for free and I loved it like I would leave a wedding and like how can I put into a really catchy something like why my posing works, power praise precision three piece of posing, I put in a blog post, and I like I thrived off of creating content like that. And so I did that for so long for it so consistently that the photographer’s that were learning from me when I came out with that course. And I offered them a chance to pay me back for what they had learned. I mean, it was a no brainer. We no one was upset with that course, no one complained, everyone was just so grateful. And I remember having a lot of thoughts like I don’t deserve this, I don’t deserve this. And one of my good friends, Amy Deimos was like you’re getting paid for years of giving with no payment. Like you’re finally getting reimbursed for your giving heart. And at first I didn’t believe her but but as we’ve moved away from that season, I’m like, I do think that’s what happened. And so being the perfectionist that I am, I moved away from that season, like how can we make the next one better? How can we make the next how can we give some more and giving right in the season we’re in now, our new lead generation is because Tyler said, Caitlin, you need a YouTube channel. And so he built together. I mean, it’s my face, but it’s his system. But we built a YouTube channel. And that has allowed me to reach and give and give and give. And that is brought a new sense of direction to what we do as far as education because we were lost for a season we had a season of I had all these children. So grateful for them, and I love them. But I lost. I lost the way I gave I was giving to my children, I still do. But I couldn’t figure out how to give to the community. I couldn’t find time to blog, I couldn’t find time to get So YouTube has created a way for me to go back to my roots and give again, and guess what has happened. Numbers have skyrocketed.
Natalie Franke
Reciprocity is one of the most powerful foundational principles, you know, when you give somebody something, you’re immediately initiating that relationship. And, you know, we all know, like know, and trust is so critical to purchasing decisions. But yes, it’s it’s as simple as that. You You had such success and that initial course launch. Yes. Because the material was great. Yes, because you built the systems, you had the email list going you had set the foundation. And you had given for years and years and years and years and showed up and blogged and, and shared what you were doing. And also, you know, we didn’t even touch on this. But that’s during a season when that was not the norm in our industry. It was the opposite, right?
Katelyn James
It was. So when I first started, we actually just found a note from my first one of my first computers that my mom’s using now. It was a note where I literally a sticky note on a Mac laptop where I had written out 2009 goals, and 2009 So it was a year and a business. I mean, you could tell I was literally this was just a note for myself. And I was using exclamation marks like just want to make sure you see how excited I am. I was crazy. So anyway, I look at this list. And there’s hilarious things like I wanted a window decal for my car. That’s how I thought marketing was going to happen. I mean for Kaitlyn, we can laugh at it now. So I wanted a window decal but I also wanted to shoot 35 weddings and I want to do host workshops and I wanted to so my I had a vision back then, of things that I it’s like I knew I could go somewhere. I just didn’t know where I was going. And I was doing workshops and I thought, okay, if I could do 25,000 per workshop four times a year, that’s a six figure business within a business. And I just kept creating those different revenue streams. And I look at that goals list now. And I think to myself, like, wow, I’ve come so far. But when I started doing those workshops when I started offering to teach, that’s when I started getting pushback from the current industry leaders. People were industry leaders because they were famous. They weren’t industry leaders because they were givers. that that’s a huge shift. So sweet friend, sweet friend of mine, but she was 10 years ahead of me in photography, she would say to me, Oh, you’re getting into that workshop thing and roll her eyes, like you’re gonna give. And now I’m like, yep, gotten to that workshop big, and it really paid off. And I’ve changed people’s lives. I wasn’t just pursuing fame for myself. And I and that’s what that’s the legacy that I want. And so it’s, I’ve said this before, and I feel like I’m rambling. But it just gets so excited about this stuff. I think there’s something so beautiful, when you can take your passion, like photography, your gift, and then Pair it with changing people’s lives, and then see some profit from it and then see an overarching purpose in your life. That is the beautiful gift I’ve been given in what I’m doing. And I’m constantly trying to seek out how does that evolve into the next, like, what’s my purpose in the next season? What’s the gift that I’m going to share with the world next, and change people’s lives? So reciprocity, giving in a time where giving wasn’t cool, pushing the envelope doing that was actually it’s sad, but it was actually innovative back in 2009, to share what you knew it was
Natalie Franke
very it was controversial. Yes, like innovative make it palatable. Yes. It was controversial. People were upset.
Katelyn James
Oh, yes. Because we were going to change an industry. They What they didn’t realize that the industry was going to change no matter what. So if they had latched on to the there are so people in this city right now that are still doing things the same old way. And I mean, you can be a successful photographer, and still help your fellow peers in the industry. Are you going to build a multimillion dollar education, business? Maybe not. But you could support your family in a new way and make friends just worth it to be nice, just be a nice person.
Natalie Franke
I even would go as far as to say, I think the independent business owners who build their business on a foundation of showing up and supporting one another will be the ones that stand the test of time. And we’ve seen this I mean, you look through even the last couple of years, you know, we’ve had a pandemic season, we’re now experiencing a recessionary period in the economy. We’ve had hurdle after hurdle and struggle after struggle, business and personal all of us Yes. And what I remember very, very vividly when it was like March 10 2020. And the world was suddenly shutting down. And our world the service based business world suddenly goes away, there’s gonna be no services, because they’re gonna be no no events. And there was immediate panic. And what I witnessed in that moment, was this coming together this moment of, okay, what are we going to do? And we, I mean, we dropped everything we actually we all took pay cuts that HoneyBook the whole company agreed to take pay cuts, so not a single person would get laid off, even though our members weren’t making money. Because again, the beautiful thing about this business is HoneyBook only wins when businesses win. Yeah, if businesses don’t win, we don’t win. And that’s, that is an ethical alignment I’m so passionate about. So when all of the business revenue got cut off, as a company, we said we’re going to take pay cuts, because we don’t want to if we can avoid it, we’re gonna do whatever we would have to do. And we’re gonna stop business as usual. And we literally I started asking, I started going to different community leaders and saying, Okay, what can we offer and we had, you know, a finance expert, Dominique Broadway coming on and talking about okay, if you’re strapped for cash, here are your options. Stuff, she charges 1000s of dollars to teach. She was given for free, Paige Griffith coming in with, okay, you need, you know, this specific type of clause now for your contract act yourself. Yeah. And we’d never even heard of a force majeure. At that point. None of us were like force majeure. What does that mean? What language is that? And she went as far as to say, give it away? Yes. Give it all away. Because we are in this together? Yes. Because even if you compete with me, we are also and more importantly, perhaps the community. Yes. And it’s that spirit. And it
Katelyn James
goes back to like, you know, someone could twist your words and say, you have to make money. You can’t just give and give and give, and your right, right. But what you’re at the heart of what you’re saying is, is that and it’s what I’m saying, if you live to give, you are going to expand your business and you’re going to grow. It’s just a natural consequence of having a heart that that is natured that way, and so I love that I didn’t know that but honey book, but I love that. I mean, yeah, we love honey book. We love them even more when you tell stories like that. Yeah.
Natalie Franke
Well, I want to I want to take a little bit of a step towards a conversation that we actually chatted about prior to turning the cameras on. And it’s about pressure. There’s a lot of pressure. There’s a lot of pressure, because I can only imagine, you know, yes, you’ve had phenomenal business success. You have a seven figure business, you’re doing multi seven figure business. We’re not talking like you just had a million multi seven figure business, recurring streams of revenue. How many team members do you have now?
Katelyn James
It’s a good question. So myself, yep. My sister is the CEO. runs the whole thing, right? I mean, she can’t live without her. My sister in law, Morgan. She literally looks just like me, but She’s not related to me, technically, she, she runs so much of the back end and customer support. We have a part time employee, Casey, who does community development. And then Michael is a part of it. But he has removed himself a lot, because we started a micro school for our children that celebrates entrepreneurial beginnings, which is awesome. That’s a whole nother conversation. So Michael’s removed himself a little bit, but he was doing a lot of fun. He’s still doing some financial things. Tyler, he technically, if we should put his face on the website, he’s not a salaried employee, but he could be. He’s like, Alright, guys, okay, I’ve been saying this for years. But he is the reason we have a YouTube channel. He’s the reason that our courses get filmed and filmed well. And he’s very much a team member. And then we have some contracted employees that serve things like, you know, ads, strategy and management, things like that. But when it comes to just our team, it’s still small, mighty, but they get paid very well. And there’s some people that have said, Oh, you’re killing it, you can just shut this down, like whenever you want, I’m like, No, that’s not how it works. Because you see numbers, but you don’t see how much it costs. And you don’t see the health insurance package, you don’t see, you know, the there are costs that come with hiring people. And the pressure is, and I was just talking with a friend about this, the pressure is that I have built something at a scale to where I can’t just say, I don’t want to do this anymore. It affects my family, right? It affects everybody. And you know, we joke my brother and my brother in law and sister building house right next to us in the woods, and we sold some of our land to them. And it’s beautiful. And, and I told my sister, I’m like, something I have to fight is as they every time I see a construction truck, go down your driveway. So noes have thoughts of like the business got to keep going because they have a new mortgage. Like that’s those are the things that I think about. And I’ve gotten to a place where I handle it in a much healthier way than I used to, because of my ability to catch the stories before they spiral. But I think I am trying to live into the I get to another I have I have twos and if God’s been faithful for 14 years, it might not look like the same income. It always has. It might fluctuate and dip. But I’m I know, I can trust that my business mind is not going to just shut down one day and not ever produce anything profitable again. But this is the tricky part, I feel like I’m flip flopping back and forth from positive to negative. The tricky part is when you build a multi million dollar business, if you want to pivot it and you want to do something else, it’s not going to be a multi million dollar pivot waiting for you. It’s going to be at the beginning again. And I can’t shut down. And I don’t want to. But if you talk to any business owner, this level that doesn’t want to be acquired. I don’t have I can’t be acquired, I maybe could but I don’t want to be if you want to keep the legacy going over here, but you want to build something else. This has to keep going to pay the team that’s running it. And it’s at a scale where it can’t just be like cut in half. Right. So that’s my struggle.
Natalie Franke
Well, you almost have to side hustle your way into new ventures.
Katelyn James
Yes. Which I am, which I love. Coming back to the CNBC article on side hustle. It is a side hustle, I
Natalie Franke
didn’t realize it. They were writer more correct than we thought. Yeah, no, I, I it’s it’s so true. And I think you know that pressure is something that personally like in my own journey has really been a challenge because we talked about that fountain of inspiration and creativity. And, you know, the brain can’t be both creative and open minded and terrified and feeling the pressure at the same time.
Katelyn James
Right. It’s like, the greatest challenge and entrepreneurs mind between the two. How can you be the person innovating and creating and the person run by fear? You can’t have both. That’s hard.
Natalie Franke
It is hard, but it’s so deeply universal. It’s so universally it’s your most
Katelyn James
Yeah, it’s it’s so human. And I none of my great ideas have come from a place where I was sitting down with a notebook fretting about is the next launch going to be six figures or not? Are we going to be able to bring on that new person we need to bring on? Do we have to cut back here. None of my ideas that have made me money came from places of fear. It’s come from places of i Oh, there’s it’s just flowing. It’s just flowing. I’m not thinking anything about the money. I’m thinking about what’s the what is the need and how can I serve people? And that’s how I make money. But if I focus on the money the money doesn’t come
Natalie Franke
that right there might be the golden lesson in entrepreneurship.
Katelyn James
Yeah, we can shut it all down. We’re done. We’re done all we needed podcasters ever
Natalie Franke
know but I mean the knee because you even at one point were like you didn’t want to launch presets. Yes, I didn’t want to launch presets. Why? Why did you what was like the indicator that the market was begging for it?
Katelyn James
Our consultants said it’s like I’m doing some research and SEO wise the number two search result on Google for Caitlyn James is Caitlyn James presets. So think about all these people, potentially hundreds a day are searching In for your presets and coming up with nothing. So why don’t you pay attention to what people need and want from you? Instead of thinking about, you know, oh, I don’t know I was. Sometimes we can be a little prideful. I’m like, everyone has presets, I don’t want to do presets. And I truthfully did, I do have a standard for myself that I don’t want to replicate just what everyone else is doing. I really struggle with that, to the point where it’s probably a fault in my business mind. But I wanted to do presets differently. And so I took some time and I reached out to my best friend Jill helped me develop because she’s done this before. And I just created an approach to presets. It’s different. It’s not a one click. It’s a four step process that teaches people the power of step by step manual editing, but it automates it. It’s very interesting. So I launched that, put it out in the world thinking off, here we go, we’ll see what happens $500,000 In the month of November of the year, we launched half a million dollar product. Great. That’s a this is what’s crazy. That’s a business in and of itself, right? The preset process could be a standalone business. And I didn’t want to do it because I had all these crazy lies I was believing about, oh, that’s not my thing. Oh my gosh, I am. I have a hot mess of an entrepreneur. That’s what I am an entrepreneur
Natalie Franke
period, because it’s why this is so important. Because this is this is the wrestle of it. This is the real, this is what it’s really like. And so many business owners see the CNBC headline and keep scrolling with their day saying, well, that’s great for her. But she’s not feeling what we’ve talked about for the last 40 minutes in this Congress. Oh, yes, I feel at all. And that’s part of like, what inspires the work I do. I’m like, we need to normalize these conversations to lift each other up and know that this is all part of the process, the showing up to a craft show with your plates, and having no one by a single one showing up to a book signing and having no one show. I mean, I had like five people show up to one one. And, you know, it’s so easy to get defeated. But then I also remember seeing a picture of Jon Acuff share has shared this a couple of times, yes, I love it, when he shares that, you know, are talking about where he’s sitting in an empty, empty looks
Katelyn James
like someone just like ran over his dog. It’s so sad. It is so sad. And then he’s speaking on stage in front of 1000s.
Natalie Franke
It’s about the journey, and it’s about being able to pursue it and never give up. There is one question, I end every episode by asking. And there’s no right or wrong answer. But it is such a question that I love, because I think it reveals how each of us interpret success in our businesses. And so I’d be really curious to know, for you, Caitlin, what do you think, is the thing that differentiates the businesses that succeed from the ones that fail?
Katelyn James
You really end with a a hard one? I think the businesses that succeed in from my perspective, I think they have vision beyond the bottom line. I think they have purpose. And maybe statistically, this would prove me wrong, right? Because there’s always people that can have a business with no heart. And people are, you know, duped into buying from something that they don’t really believe in. And I’m sure there’s exceptions. But that also goes back to what what is success. Because success for me, someone said recently, we buy raw milk from farm out and Lexington, cream Brook Farms. And we were actually with the owner the other day, and we were talking about business. And he’s like, it seems like everybody just when a business become about acquisition, he’s like, when did that become a thing, you build a business just to get it sold, make a lot of money. He’s like, I thought you built a business, to serve your family and to serve your life and to do something you’re passionate about make money doing it. And I’m like, You’re right. You are so right. And so if that is success, then it does have to be rooted in purpose, and how you’re changing people’s lives, which is all rooted in the vision of it. So maybe I am right, maybe this is maybe this is what I truly believe. I do think that it has, you have to have a vision that goes beyond yourself. And if that is true, then people attach on to that. And sometimes I think people attach on to that before they even know why they’re attracted to you. We’ve had people say this before, they will say things like, I found you on YouTube. And I don’t know why but I just keep watching all your stuff. And then they’ll see one video or hear me explain one thing and they’re like I resonate with you, thank you for caring about what you’re doing. And I do, I think that is at the heart of a business owner. I think ultimately, it’s when their purpose aligns with their passion, which is what I aim to do with the rest of my business running yours.
Natalie Franke
And what’s funny is that that is truly the mission statement like a life built on passion and purpose is literally a mission statement that we have and we hold very dear. This has been so incredible, and I just want to thank you for sharing so vulnerably being open. I have no doubt that listeners are going to want to connect with you further. Where are some of the places that they can go To learn about everything that we have today, where can they find you?
Katelyn James
That’s a great question. So I always preface this with like, if you want the tech but non tech version of kJ with photography, education that is very YouTube heavy. So we have a YouTube channel that we love, and are, you know, consistently putting new content on Instagram is where you see the most real life, our children, our family, our life, what we’re learning our marriage, and the podcast is where I get to talk about all things business in life and where the kind of the beautiful collision of all those worlds come into play. So there’s podcasts, Instagram, there’s YouTube, and it is been an honor. I love you. I’ve loved you since I met you years and years ago, since I got to shoot your wedding. This has just been I’m proud of you for what you’re doing. And for the ways that you’re using your passion is evident that this is what you love. And that’s what we’re talking about finding your passion and changing the world with it. So I’m honored that I got to be a part of it.
Natalie Franke
Caitlin, thank you so much. We will link all of that in our show notes. And I just again, thank you from the bottom welcome. You’re welcome.
Natalie Franke
That ends our episode of The Independent Business Podcast. Everything that we’ve discussed today can be [email protected]. Head to our website for access to show notes, relevant links and all of the resources that you need to level up. And if you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so that you never miss our future content. Drop us a review and leave our guests some love on social. Thanks again for listening