How to write copy that drives sales with Christina Torres

Akua: One thing you’re going to learn from today’s episode on the independent business podcast is that there is a science when it comes to copywriting. Today on the show, we sat down with copywriter and CEO of run and tell that co Christina Torres. Christina shares with us the major differences between selling as a product and service based business.

Major mistakes business owners make with their copy and how to loosen up your sales page buttons. Get ready to laugh and learn about how to strengthen our copywriting skills and become more confident in selling. Now let’s get into the episode. Hey everyone, this is your host Akua Kanadu and you’re listening to the independent business podcast.

More people than ever are working for themselves and building profitable businesses in the process. So on this show, I get to sit down with some of the most influential authors, entrepreneurs, and creators Hello,

Christina. How are we doing today? 

Christina: I’m good. How are you? 

Akua: Good. So excited to have you here. Hop into this conversation because we’ve already been cackling girl. So I 

Christina: know y’all can put it in the bloopers. I don’t know. Things get boring. You could always, Put me back in. 

Akua: We can slide those in there. Yes, exactly.

Oh no, I’m super excited because I just, I love your brand. I love just like how you show up in your business. And so I’m really excited for us just to kind of do a deeper dive into just copywriting sales copy, being more strategic in selling our products and services in our business. So super, super excited for this conversation.

A question that I want to kick off with is that you. Have it like a topic, but just if you can give us a quick rundown of it, of like, you said that service based businesses need to sell more, but product based businesses need to serve more. So can you elaborate on that? Because I do, I think as somebody who hasn’t also a product based business, it totally is like two different realms.

And it’s definitely a learning curve for me personally. So I wanted to, to hear what, just elaborating more on that. For sure. So 

Christina: I. really early on was like, niche, never. And I get bored easily. So I never was like, Oh, I only write for service providers, or I only write for this. And I felt like they could learn so much from each other.

I learned so much from just being a consumer, uh, out here in the streets and then vice versa, being a service provider and hiring other service providers. So one of the things I just realized as I was writing copy for one, And the other service providers will nurture and educate the world to 

Akua: death 

Christina: and will never ask And we’ll never ask for the sale They just think people know i’m a coach or people know i’m a lawyer or people know that i’m a copywriter And I’m just gonna teach them about copy.

I’m going to teach them about legal advice. I’m going to teach the, you know, I’m a personality brand, so I’m just going to show up and then never ask for the sale. 

Akua: The 

Christina: opposite happens with the product based businesses. It’s just like, it’s sell, sell, sell, sell. It’s just like, buy this thing, buy this thing, buy this thing.

And it’s never really like, Well, why this thing or sometimes it is, but for the most part they’re just like, there’s no maybe community building. That happens. And I think that’s changed over like maybe the past 10 years with a lot of these like startup brands. There’s, there’s so many like brands that have really, they’ve realized building community, um, things comes to mind, despite all their, their drama that they’ve had, but they are really into activating and engaging and educating and being a part of their community.

And I think service providers, coaches, and consultants do that really well because they know relationship building is how they make their money. Like I could be the best copywriter in the world, but if I don’t like people, it’s really hard to sell to people. And then product based businesses where you’re like, well, people just buy the product and we have so much content.

Let me get, we have to create so much content to sell anything in the first place. Like, I just want things to sell. Like it’s just a different business model. And I think what motivates people is a little different, right? Like a service provider maybe has some Google docs, right? So there’s not like a lot of pressure.

I’ve paid for this product. I got to get this product out of the shelves. And so I need to sell it. I don’t have time to be cute or be funny. So I think there’s, there’s different motivations, but I think just product based businesses, they just have goals and they need to sell their product or I think a service provider, they lean into relationships.

And I think if they. Swapped brains for a little bit. They could probably make a lot of money and I guess it depends on your product Right, and I just found that when I worked for instance when I worked with textured hair brands People have been told a lot of crazy stuff about how to care for their hair texture or not and so when people come on the market with something that’s specifically for someone that is really like About their business that comes from an actual cosmetologist has comes from someone who understands hair and, and ingredient science.

And they know that, but they’re not really telling people that in their, in their sales promotion, which could really help. Like if I knew how to use this product and get the best results out of this product and had a little fun. With the brand, then I’d be more inclined to keep buying the product. And so I, I think that, I think what happens there is the goals or maybe the motivation or the urgency is maybe a little different, but I think they could learn a lot more.

And then service providers just need to sell more. They’re like really weird about being salesy and marketing and, and selling to people’s pain points. And I was like, then maybe don’t sell. Like you shouldn’t, you maybe you shouldn’t participate in capitalism because unfortunately. Or fortunately, I don’t know.

But um, if people were happy With the results they’ve gotten with XYZ or just themselves, they wouldn’t buy anything. And until you like, and I think about it all the time. Like, I’m like, there’s all this going on in the world. Should I be marketing this? Um, yeah. Should I be a marketer? How am I contributing to this world?

But yeah, they just are really weird about being salesy and then pushing on pain points or, you know, saying that they can help someone. And I’m like, but that’s. That’s why that’s what business is like then start a charity on the side if it makes you feel better But you’re here to sell stuff. Yeah, so I need you to get on board or or just don’t do it.

Just don’t do it Um, so yeah, I think that’s the struggle and I think that those are the pros and the cons So I guess my advice is just like If you see something interesting as a service provider on the product side, see how you could flip it. And the same, like if you’re, if you’re a founder and you’re like in a mastermind or you’re in some type of communion, you’re like, you know what, if we had something like this for our people where they could meet each other, or 

Akua: we 

Christina: can learn a little bit more about our people and what they actually need, then we should do this.

So keep your eyes open, be a little bit more nosy and curious. 

Akua: Yes. I love that. And you know, you shared it perfectly as I like think of my own personal journey. So I have my product based business is Amanakua. It’s a gift box subscription business where like all the products are by BIPOC and LGBTQIA and women owned business owners.

And it’s true. Like we finally invested in the product and I didn’t care. I’m just selling because yeah, like in your mindset, you’re like literally I have to get this product out. Right. Because we’ve invested this. So like you’re selling, you’re selling, you’re selling. Like, I feel no shame when I do it with a monocle, but in my service based business.

I like cringe. 

Christina: Am I being creepy? 

Akua: Am I being weird? You know what I mean? Like I do, and I mean, I still sell, like, I’m not going to act like, you know what I mean? Like I still sell, right? Cause bills gotta be paid, but I’m not going to act like it comes so naturally and so easy to me. And I think a lot of us as service based businesses, we just, we are, we’re so comfortable in that nurture space.

It’s honestly a safe space for us. Like I will, I love to provide value. I will give shit away for free. You know what I mean? I’m like, right. And so, yeah. And it’s because I do, I love, it’s coming from that service place first. Like I always want to serve people and help them. Like for me, it’s like, okay, sales isn’t at the top of mind, but in order to have a sustainable business, you do need to prioritize that and sell in a way that feels good to you, but also to your clients.

So I just, I love how you broke down both. And I think that’s really great of like, look at product based businesses and see how they’re doing it. How can you take some of these strategies and where you’re implementing into your own business? I love that. Like. They both can take something from each other.

Um, and even a product based business of like, how can you build community? How can you go beyond your product to share the why behind your brain and business? So I love both of these. And so I’m really curious to know a little bit more about you because you said, like, you have never really niched out and like, what has your journey in entrepreneurship looked like for you?

Christina: It’s been everywhere. Some days I’m like, burn it down. And other days I’m like, wait, got this. So it’s been a lot of places. I’ve kind of been. I’ve been a little hustler my whole life. I’ve always had multiple jobs, multiple interests. I just, I think if I, if I like zoomed out, I like options. I like learning.

I think, I think everyone is really interesting, even if they don’t think they’re interesting. I just found a lot of things super interesting. So my background actually is I’ve worked in finance. Probably my whole life. Um, there’s really, oh, there’s a few industries, but I was never going to be a lawyer and I’ll never be, I was probably never going to be a doctor.

So the other things in New York are advertising and finance. Um, and I would finance. And I don’t know why, but I did, but I always found advertising. I always found marketing. I always found writing just amazing. I always wanted to be a writer, but I knew I didn’t want to be a struggling artist and I didn’t know what copy was.

I was a Puerto Rican girl from Brooklyn. I didn’t know that that was a thing that wasn’t given to me as an option. Being a receptionist was being given to me as an option. Being an administrative assistant was given to me as an option. Being a nanny was given to me as an option. I’m like, well, I didn’t go to college to do that.

But, and then no shade, but like those were the options as, as a, as a, As a POC and as a woman, like, this is easy. Like this is an easy entryway to like doing things, which may be in hindsight, like it, those, those skills had a lot. I bartended, I was waitress. I did so many things. And then my son came along in 2015.

I was working at one of the top five finance firms. My maternity leave, I made my maternity leave stretch. I think at the time we really only got six or eight weeks, um, in the U S and that was because it was a bank, like at other places they were like, give birth, come back to work. And so I still felt like that wasn’t enough.

And so I milked it, I used all the vacations and all the things, I came back, I worked for a little bit, and I was just like, I hate this, I want to be home with my baby, um, and I just don’t, I just don’t love this, so I was like, what can I do? And I already had been maybe living my life quite differently. I entered motherhood as a single mother.

Like I had really no interest in being married. I wanted this, I wanted a little baby, but I was like, all that other stuff, see, is like for the birds. It is not for me. I don’t need to take care of another person. Like I got one person to take care of, that sounds like all I can do. Um, take another, take care of another person?

Absolutely not. And how, and I don’t have my autonomy and all this stuff, and I just felt like I was doing single motherhood a lot differently than what I had saw my mother do. What I had saw other people do. Like I really was about putting myself first. Like my career comes first, my happiness comes first, and I feel like that’s gonna trickle down to my baby.

And I got bit by, I was really into personal development. And I got bit by the coaching bug and I was like, I’m gonna be a coach for single mamas and like a S like a single mama career coach type vibe. Right. Um, and just help people do brave, weird things. And so I found a coach and she was like, okay, well, the first thing you’re going to need is a coach.

Uh, a landing page and an email list. And I was like, I think I know what that is. I’ve consumed enough things. I can do it. And so just naturally I was like, okay, what does that look like? Oh, okay. This person, I looked at a few things, just naturally do a little market research. Uh, I was like, okay, I could, I could do that.

Wrote it up. I said, here’s my landing page. Here’s my opt in. Here’s my welcome sequence. And she was like, it’s really good. And I was like, thank you. She was like, would you consider? Being a copywriter instead and I was like, uh, what’s that? And she’s like She’s like, uh, you know madmen. Have you seen madmen?

I’m like not really. Okay. She’s like advertising. It’s advertising It’s the words you’ve written and you wrote you wrote I can hear you talking while you write But you also hit a lot of point like you really res like I wanted to buy and I’m not a single mother. Um, and I want you to coach me. You get it.

And I think this would A, be more lucrative. You’d make a lot more money and everybody needs copy. And I was like, okay, and so I just signed up for the things and I was like, Dumb and naive. And I had a little hustler spirit and I’m like, do you need coffee? Do you need coffee? Do you need coffee? And then I joined a group and it was so hard.

It was so hard freelancing. It was so hard people to pay rates. You wanted them. It was so hard not to get advantage, take advantage of as a female copywriter. It was so hard to find things to write that were interesting. I’m like, I don’t care about your service. I have a software. So I was just like, how do I write things for the people?

I’ve talked to all the time and live my life with in my voice. How do I do that? And so I was in a copywriting group and I felt like I was going to give up. I was like, can I just go in house and an agency? Like I know the vibe companies are stealing our voices left and right. I can already write in that voice.

It’s the life I live. I’m sure they’ll pay me a comfy stuff. I get a 401k and I go home, like let’s do that. And I know I’ll never forget Rob Marsh from the Copywriter Club. Shout out to him. Um, white man from Utah. And he was like, no, I think you’d make a lot more money. doing it by yourself. You don’t need an, you don’t need an agency.

You don’t, you don’t need them. It’s not going to be easy, but you don’t need them. I believe in you. I don’t need to, I don’t need to like, or love your copy. It’s for whoever it is for. I think it’s a, I think you should just go with it. And that’s all I needed. I just needed this middle aged white man to tell me I could do it.

And I did it and I did it. And so I was just like, and I remember it was really hard. I have people being like, well, don’t you think you won’t be able to get like, You’re because I was working with a lot of, um, Latinx and black and queer founders. And they’re like, don’t you think they’re not going to be able to get funding?

Don’t you think they’re not going to understand? I’m like, but their, their, their product is not for that person. And the, whoever they’re getting capital from doesn’t care. They just want to know that they can get this money. And I understand how to talk to those people too. I’ve been cold switching my whole life.

We got this, like, I’m not worried about that. So I just kept plugging along and there’s been different, there’s been so many different iterations. Um, and I probably quit and restarted every other two weeks, but I’m here now five years later and we have an agency manager, we have a delivery assistant and I’m moving slowly out of copywriting.

So it’s been a journey. Yes. It’s been a journey and it wasn’t easy and we’re still not millionaires because I don’t want to pretend that like that’s the case, but I’m a lot happier than when I started. 

Akua: Oh my gosh. I love that so much because there were just so many, many things to unpack. Like number one, just talking about again, like entrepreneurs, just a hustler.

You’re like, I’ve always been a hustler, so I’m going to figure it out regardless, right? Like I hate being broke. It’s not good. Girl! Appreciate it, right? Like, exactly. So you’re like, I’m gonna figure it out regardless. But I do, like, are you first generation? I am as well. So um, 

Christina: Puerto Rico is a colony, and one of the oldest and only colonies in the world.

So we got a passport. We gotta use a passport. We gotta use a passport. Yes. Oh my gosh, yes. I’m sorry. I forgot that. But, everyone else has jobs. Yes. No one is a business owner. 

Akua: Yes, and I think culturally too, like, especially it’s, you are presented with only certain options and I think it’s just because again, it’s like thinking differently and you were like, no, like I know I want something really different for myself and how just you continue to lean into who you are and march to the beat of your own drum, which is very cool that you’ve done.

And then how have you taken this raw talent and have created a sustainable, profitable business, which is truly, truly just beautiful. So definitely have to give you your flowers there. Like, I loved hearing your story and that was. Absolutely amazing. In regards to copy, what are some of the most common mistakes that you’re seeing business owners that are making, especially when it comes to selling their products or services?

Christina: Yeah, I think the first thing they’re doing, whether they’re a product or a service, um, and I guess you just change the pronoun or whoever it, that’s not what I’m looking for, but whatever the noun is, they’re making it about them or the product. Like they’re selling themselves. or the product as opposed to like selling what people want, like what people need.

So like saying like, you know, I’m a copywriter who does this. Like who cares? No one cares. What they care, what your people care about is what you can do for them. Like how this is going to change my life. So I think the first thing people think is like, I have to prove that I am the person or the service or the product for them.

But it’s like the other way around, like, it’s kind of like, you have to say like, you’re the perfect, like you, you’re the perfect fit for this. Like you have been looking for this your whole life, like that kind of like switch. And it’s hard to just say it in that phrase, but just putting the person who’s buying first and like what they really want, what they’re actually saying.

Even if you’re like, but that’s not, that’s not what it is. And you’re like, yeah, but that’s what people think it is. We can change their mind later. We can, we can get them to the other side and really appreciate this later. But right now they don’t know. They don’t live in your jargon. They don’t, they don’t understand your world quite real.

They just know that they want this result. I think another one that I see a lot and I understand why people do it, but like. You know, we kind of over promise things. Like we’re just like, this is going to change everything. And I think there’s a way to do that without making it asterisk results are not typical.

Like, yeah, that’s the best case scenario. Great. But what if I don’t get that best case scenario? What else, what are like byproducts, what are other use cases that I can. And so I don’t have to over promise things that’s mostly service for every some products do it Like they make it seem like this is gonna like change your life Um, and it might but maybe like not the way You think, and not maybe in a way that is kosher, like not for everyone.

It’s not going to be the case for everyone. So what else, what are some other things? What are some other use cases? Get like creative, listen to what people are actually saying and using your product to do, not what you want people to do with your product or services. What are they actually leveraging it for?

And like using that in your messaging. So I would say probably those are the things. And then trying to always say something new would be the third one. So like, they’re always like, Oh, I don’t know what to write. Something I say all the time is like, copywriting, you can be creative, but it’s not creative.

And it gets lumped into creative because, you know, you need graphic design and you need web design and you need UX design and they make it look cute. And, and there’s fonts and there’s, you know, Formatting, but it’s not creative work. It’s really just like message engineering. And so I’m just taking messages that already exist, words that already exist and kind of just putting it in the order that people need to hear, feel it, see it so that, and hopefully it’s things that have been said so many times that it’s drilled in their head and they can’t think of anything else.

Right. There’s some psychology, right? It’s more of a science than an art. Um, What maybe makes it art is that like we use, you know, there’s voices and it’s, there’s, you know, we could put pop references or things like that. But at the end of the day, it’s things that you’ve already said. So people get really like, Oh yeah, I want like this new fresh, you can have a fresh angle, but I don’t think saying something that no one has ever heard is going to help.

I think, why don’t we just really, what we’re doing is repurposing or just like message stacking. Then we are really like, Oh, I’m going to be creative. I guess the creative process is maybe if you’re doing a whole advertising campaign, right? Like those are, that’s part of it. And then copy comes into there, but that’s like a creative director.

Like, so that, that part of like copy being creative and like kind of maybe. A nice to have not that creative is nice to have it’s really important humans like pretty things and it helps but um Copy to me is not is not a creative endeavor It’s more of a yeah, I think it’s more engineering than it is So even if I could go back in time just like how I am as a person I’m, very much of a macgyver like i’ma make it work I will build something and I think if I went back in time and it was presented to me i’d be an engineer Um But, uh, marketing’s fine.

It’ll do. Um, It’ll do. It’ll do. And I am not good at math, so, sounds fantastic. So yeah, I think those are, those would be like the top three things. Just make sure you’re focusing on your customer and not trying to prove and validate yourself as a thing. You want to prove and validate this is the thing for them.

Using you language. 

Akua: But you said so many good things, though. Number one, I love what you said your second tip of like, how we over promise, right? Like, and we always hear that you want to like, you want to over, under promise, over deliver. And I think to your point of, we see this all the time, which I think a lot of us as business owners are so over it and just burnt out of like, follow these steps to make six figures in your business, or like run a seven figure business by doing these exact single steps, right?

Like, but again, it’s like, What are the byproducts, right? But that goes beyond that because the results do vary and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think we like really just need to be very honest so that the expectations also too, for the people that you’re communicating with are clear. I think number one, two, I think people just want more rawness, realness.

Honesty now more than ever. And so you don’t have to present it as if like your services, I’m like, well, this is going to make you a lot of money in this and that. Like I always like to say to, to your point of like, what are the other byproducts? Like look at things holistically of how much your products or services can really impact people.

Is it going to save them more time to spend more time with their families? Right? Like we want things that go well beyond money, right? It’s not about money. It’s not, you know what I mean? Like what truly think deep of like, in your audience’s shoes of like how you can really, your products can really, truly make a difference in their life.

So I really love that of like, what are the byproducts of that? Besides like, these are the exact strategies that I can, that you have to implement to make a six figure business because no business is a one size fits all. And so I think when we’re communicating that. We need to communicate that, that like your business is your business.

And so like, I’m here to support you and create something that’s personalized for you. And so I love that so much. I just don’t think we’re talking about that enough. So I really love that you brought that, that point up because I think that’s, that’s so. So important now because I think a lot of us like roll our eyes when we see people are like, Oh, yeah, follow these steps to make this much money and this and that and I’m like and Ethically some people aren’t even delivering that 

Christina: You know, no, they’re not and not enough like I think it’s smart to have a framework.

I’m not saying don’t have a framework Yeah, absolutely, and that’s gonna help people gonna be like they know what they’re doing But I think being honest and like This part of the framework may not be for you right now. Like we’re going to, this part of this framework is here. So I do agree. Like you should customize, customize, but you still need to, you know, just, there’s just so many reasons for why people buy it.

I think people just try to make things such an exact science. And you’re like, you’re not going to know. So let’s like, see what goes out there and then see what sticks, but let’s be strategic and maybe a little bit more responsible about what we’re throwing out there and what sticks. 

Akua: Yes. I love that.

That is such a good point. And so you have this, I laughed so hard because I, this is how I’m remembering the question because you literally used the Pussycat Dolls song, loosening up my buttons, bae. Like 

Christina: what? I sing it and think at the same time. 

Akua: I, but this is how I remember the question. I was like, this is so true and that’s so catchy, but you said that business owners need to loosen up their buttons.

And there is a difference between, like you talk about loosening up your sales page buttons and that there is a difference between call to action. Call to benefit and call to decision. So let’s break that down and talk about that. Cause I literally did not think about that at all. And I was like, Oh my gosh, there is like, how do we, cause right.

You always see the very generic call to actions like click to buy or, you know, click to learn more or stuff like that. And I just love the way that you broke that down. So can you break down each one for us? 

Christina: Yeah, so a call to action is exactly what maybe it sounds or doesn’t sound like. It’s like, I need you to do this thing.

Like this is what I need you to do next. I need you to sign up. I need you to click here. I need you to enter your email. I need you to buy, shop now. Really clear. And they’re, they’re effective in places where like you ain’t got a lot of time. Like they’ll, they work. They’re great in SMS. They’re good at emails.

Like it’s fine. And you want to be like, if you do want to get a little cute and clever and make sure it makes sense, but yeah, it’s fine. Um, but I think sometimes, especially in worlds where there’s high ticket and things seem really high stake. And I think this comes just being in a world where again, finance, or even just being in the restaurant business, right?

Like you want to like, if a meal is like 500 or a hundred dollars, or a bottle of wine is 500, like. You want to be like, this is, you know, you want to sandwich it. Like what a little professionalism and like, ah, like, like by my personality, like, like just be distracted by how cute I am or something like that.

But no, I think the idea is like the call to benefit. It kind of mitigates the risk. Like this feels risky. And if you remind them of like why you came here. Right why you came here what you wanted when you press this button. It’s on the other side of this button so instead of saying click here or sign up i’d be like like, um, You had me at whatever the thing is you had me at and you’re like and we’ll use this as a bad example But you had me at six figures like that’s the thing I want or you had me at never writing another piece of copy again It’s a long thing but who cares but like that’s the that’s I want I want to remind people why they came here and what’s waiting for you is on the other side of this button.

And so that, that would be like a more a call to benefit. And I think those are typically more effective. They’re more fun to write. And when I write something like let’s say a sales page for something high stake or just a product description or something like that. And I want them to be playful. I want them to, you know, throw it in the bag or something like that.

Like I think, you know, thinking about where they are, like if you’ve gotten this far. In the sales page or this far in the product description like some people everybody makes decisions for different reasons And one of the rules in copywriting is one reader like one reader one call to action And there’s a multiverse of that one person and that other part that the multiverse of that person has different experiences The multiverse of that person is a different stage in their life the multiverse of that person You know, is there certain messages resonate with them?

So like, if you think about how far someone’s coming down a page, you got to think about like, where, where’s their mindset at? Like, are they feeling good? Do they know you well? Are they more, are they risk takers? Are they, do they need a lot of information? Right. And making sure the call to benefit or call to action makes sense for where they are in the decision making process.

Make sense. And if they make it all the way to the bottom of the page and to the FAQs, and you know, now they have to make a decision. Is this for me or is this not for me? So in the FAQs, first of all, I don’t want to trouble anyone. Um, as someone who has ADHD, I’m always distracted. So, um, I have just always, it’s a, it’s a rule of mine.

You’re not going to get to an FAQ and then get, uh, you’re answered. Your question answered and then be like, ah, damn, what do I scroll up? And then the ding pings. And then, so like the call to decision is in that FAQ. So this is the decision you make the decision. You either rock in with us or you’re not right.

So like, if this is, if that works for you, then let’s move on to the next page. So I just think like giving people different ways to reframe. Because you just don’t know. Humans are humans and they decide that they’re going to do things for all different types of reasons. Like I said, some people are risk takers, some people are very reserved, some people are very logical, some people are very emotional.

And you need to have buttons and copy that’s important. Speak to those different type of decision makers so you can get them to make a decision. You know, we want to make our chances of someone buying something or telling us why they’re not going to buy something as easy and as quick as possible. So those are kind of like the difference between those, those difference.

And they work, they work for all different reasons, not to say call to actions don’t work. They’re simple. People use them. But I think when the larger audience or. You find in your research that like, yeah, I don’t know what people buy for all different types of reasons or for reasons I didn’t even think about, then maybe playing with call to benefits and call to decision might help a little bit more.

Akua: And I love that because I think, just to even make sure that I understand too, it’s like you’re placing these buttons, these call to decisions, uh, call to benefit, call decisions on different areas of the page based on where they’re at in their journey. And it’s like, you have to be so in tune with who it is that you’re speaking to.

Um, but I love that either way, you’re still, those buttons, I feel like just, Honors people no matter where they’re at in their journey. Like if they are more of an emotional buyer or more logical, right. Or, you know, they’re more risk, like they love to take risks, but they’re more risk averse. Like that. I like, I like that.

Cause that would make me feel more confident in creating my sales page. But I love that too. Even with the benefit of like, remind them why they were here. Right. Like click here because you know, you wanted to see. so that you wanted to make six figures or whatever it is. Like whatever that benefit is, you’re consistently reminding them of that throughout the page.

Because yes, sales pages can get long. Like they naturally are long, but they get like, I always will like zoning out myself, you know, at times. And I think again, like constantly like, 

Christina: what did I just read? 

Akua: I know. So I love that. I’ve like, it’s like, I feel like those buttons are just like little snippets of reminders of people of like, this is why you’re here.

Don’t forget that. It’s making sure that like, Why they’re here is front and center consistently throughout the page. And that just keeps them longer on the page, scrolling down, like, right. So like where they’re more likely to convert. So I love that so much. And I think that’s just so, so helpful. And it’s like really tips that we can start implementing to really improve our copy, our sales copy, especially let’s start there.

And then I have another question for you. 

Christina: But do something like creeping, like really go out there and look, look at your inbox. Look at what gets you to open because we’re inundated with a lot of emails, more than ever. I don’t even, even as an email, I won’t say I’m an email copywriter, but I write a lot of emails.

Um, I don’t read emails, but when I do read an email, I hit, I hit a tag. I hit a label. This is from my executive assistant days. I’m about organizing that inbox and I put a label on it. Cause I’m like, Ooh, that got me to open it. There’s something here. There’s a formula. There’s something here that I need to revisit.

Why did I open this? What was it about the subject line? What was it about the preview line when I got in there? What was it about the way the copy was when did I stop reading? Like when I was like, oh, whatever because let me tell you service provider emails be long. So when did I stop? I don’t care and then sometimes you’re like, why did you send like I understand why you sent I know why somebody sent this as a copywriter like I have a job I gotta send something out this person said they want to email You They don’t care about my input.

That’s fair. But um, I know when those emails go out like no effort. This is okay. Cool. You had to get something out but You know noticing that like figuring out why you as someone stops scrolling on something Why a facebook ad doesn’t make you roll your eyes while you’re like, oh my god. This guy was so good Figure out like why and now we have tools whenever people like, I don’t know what to say I’m like, that’s crazy because now we have things that can analyze for you so quick I jumped when people like no chat gpt is gonna steal our jobs.

I’m like, okay Um, no, it’s not it’s gonna make my job so much easier because what takes me two weeks To painstakingly like, um, copywriting is almost a lot like acting, right? I have to like study you I have to study your audience. I have to study your story I have to like get into your like i’m a coach or i’m a multi, uh, uh the ceo of this You know, and I’m a cosmetologist and I have to remember all those things.

So it’s very similar. If I could give, if I can find what works and I don’t quite know why it works, plug that baby into Chad TVT and ask it why it works, it knows. And if you feel like that’s not quite right, then use your, your instinct and be like, you know what, I disagree. Or, you know what, what about this?

Do you think it works for this? And chat GPT be like, I didn’t think of that. It sure does. She’s really a good ego stroker. I like chat GPT and Claude. Let’s lean more towards Claude because chat is maybe not the most inclusive. Now that we have Claude. ai, I think it’s only in the U S and it might be in Canada, but.

Anyway, I, you know, just really paying attention to you as a consumer. You consume things quite a bit and you need to just like figure out what stops you from scrolling. You’re a busy person. You’ve got places to go. You got things to do. What stops you in your tracks? And the second thing and really easy for me and I do not lie about this and I don’t feel like this is this takes Any credit for me as being a copywriter.

I don’t write emails. I talk them out. I am constantly Juggling three to four tasks at a time. I’m always driving someone somewhere So or driving to do something so I take my phone out if I have an idea Because sometimes you just, ideas strike you in such the weirdest places and you’re like, they sure do.

I don’t have 

Akua: a 

Christina: pen. I don’t have a thing. I just thought of this. I saw a movie or I saw a commercial or I saw a kid kick the ball. And all of a sudden that reminded me, or I saw like two kids have the cutest interaction. And I’m like, that’s what selling should be like. And I’m like, Oh, so I talk into, um, voice notes or I talk straight into otter.

ai, which is a transcription, um, or loom. If you find like looking at yourself or maybe you find that like you, you do the best when you have somebody asking you questions, you can have questions and just like loom it out. I talk a lot of my copy out and where I find the juiciest of my copy is when my clients like their guard is down and they’re doing their thing with their clients or their guard is down and they’re telling me about what frustrates them about their industry.

What they, the hopes and dreams. Cause not everybody. Yeah. Some people, at least the people I work with, I will say this, they have almost cult like following brands and it’s because they really do feel like their audiences and their customers have been led astray and taken advantage of, and they really don’t want to do that for them.

And so they get really frustrated and really passionate about like why their product is better than anything out there. Why they’re looking out for that customer. But they don’t really have time to say that because to our point before they have to sell, they have employees to pay. They have, you know, inventory to get off the shelves.

They don’t really have that time unless they go live or things like that. So notice like who you are when like. You’re not in front of a blank, a blank ghoul doc where you’re just talking and you’re super passionate about what you do. And you’re just talking about how you do it and how you came up with it.

And like people are just engrossed in your message or like you telling people about themselves or things that they’ve tried and why it doesn’t work. Like people I think are like scared to do that. Because you can self edit when you write it’s really hard to kind of self edit when you talk and like you’re in a flow So if you’re not quite sure what to say like like, all right These are the things I want to say or these are the things or these are the questions people ask me I’m just going to loom or otter it out.

And I think that’ll help you figure out your brand voice. It’ll figure out like, you know, how I should write stuff. It’s super easy. You just have to edit it afterwards. Like take the transcript down, maybe edit it a little bit, take some things out. And it’s just, I find humans and, In general, like not to say that we’re negative, but we’re a lot better at um, like critiquing and editing things Like we can find what’s wrong with stuff 

Akua: Yeah, 

Christina: a lot quicker than we can like create or Or find what’s right with stuff.

So like if you have something to start with even if it’s like I don’t know where I was going with this, but it’s a place to start and edit from as opposed to like having a blank dot. So I would say like those two places is all you really need. And of course knowing and talking with your audience as much as humanly possible.

That should have been like pre, pre all the things I just said. A lot of people start businesses or brands and haven’t talked to a soul. I’m like, word. How did you come up with this? You haven’t sold this to anyone. Do people want it? Did you ask? That’s a good idea. And sometimes it is a good idea. It just may not be the version that makes it to market.

So like probably an amazing idea, but is that what people want? Is that what people are saying? They need what gap is it filling? They just going out there. And I love that, like just going out there, but you have to talk to people. Like you really need to talk to people. Um, and that would be the first, like, no, as much like creepily.

Be as creepy as humanly possible without like, you know, breaking any HIPAA laws or like Being a peeping tom but like really just get interested in what people are doing It goes back to that like just creeping like in instagram Like if you feel envy if you see like what’s so good about them or like people always in their instagram comments Well look in those instagram comments because i’m sure there’s a mix now.

It’s hard because there’s bots everywhere But see what people are hating on see what people are loving How could you be like? Yeah, I do that and more I could go on for this forever. I thought of another framework, but um But yeah, if you’re uninspired, there’s just so many ways look at what’s happening in the world And if you do you agree with it then tell us and tell us why and elaborate if you don’t agree It’s called the yes ands the yes and yeah, but and yeah, no Like, you don’t have to have an original idea.

You can go out there and look in the world and be like, I don’t agree with that. And I’m going to tell everybody why I don’t agree with that. I do agree with that, but there’s nuance and I want to share what that nuance is. And I absolutely, I agree with that, but under certain circumstances, right? Like there’s different ways to like use other people’s content.

Like I love a good drama. Like when I see drama out here on these business streets, I like, I run to my email list. I’m like, Oh, the tea is hot. Um, let me tell you why this is genius or why this is dumb or why, how you can avoid this, right? So like leaning into that, just like living your life. We become like, business is my only personality.

As that, like, we don’t live life and you have to live life and believe me, I’m a shut in on the low, but you have to, like, you have to live life a little bit, even if it’s just being in front of Netflix for a little bit. 

Akua: Yeah, 

Christina: to be interesting and to find content ideas and to find angles like Just sitting behind your computer like racking your head against the wall like how do I make this sell is not gonna help you so those would be My long winded 

Akua: But you know you brought us back you brought us back

But I love that though the talking it out though, oh my gosh, yeah I think that’s gonna really help a lot of business owners, especially if you are not naturally a writer and I think yeah I think just like asking yourself, like, what did I do today? And just talking it out and Otter, I think it’s just, it’s fantastic.

Like, I think that’s just such a great idea. And then you just transcribe it and then make some edits and you now have a newsletter, right? Like, I think again, it just really alleviates that pressure because a lot of us will be sitting there like, Looking at the blanks page, like, what do I want to talk about this week?

It’s like just talking to a microphone or whatever, and just record yourself because all of a sudden when you go back and listen, it can spark an idea. You know, it can really, and again, I think to your point of like, how it can really help find your brand voice for me personally, how I found mine. It’s like, I went and listened to other past interviews.

Um, I’ve listened like old content, like the things that I really liked that I said, I was like, okay, this is how I want to sound and right. And you want your copy to be very conversational. You want the person that’s reading it to be like, They’re literally speaking with you, like you guys are having a conversation as they’re reading.

So I, I love that. And I think that’s just such a great way for business owners to either get started or they’re just like, Hey, like I don’t have the capacity right now or in this season of my life to afford a copywriter. This is where I’m at. And so love that. Love that so much. I have truly enjoyed this conversation, Christina, the last question we always love to end with is what do you think is the biggest differentiator between the businesses that succeed and the ones that fail?

I 

Christina: think the biggest thing is maybe what I kind of just said, like just having your head down. And just like not living your life and just like my business is my business because you’ll look up and the world has changed. The market has changed and you just have been so like locked in to doing business this way and selling this way and scaling this way.

And then by the time you raise your head up, like everything has changed and it’s happening even quicker now. So like, I think that having your head down and then the part B is like. What you have going now will may not be the thing that you have going in two or three years. So like not feeling this guilt about pivoting or changing or iterating on something, because it is going to change your market.

Your market’s going to change the reason why people buy change. And like, just thinking of that, like, you know, and it’s hard, like when we get tied to something and we, we launched something and we love it and we’re like, okay, great. This is doing so well, but. You know, we have to put, put our, our, our customers and our clients and our offers first.

And so like, you know, if you’re not living your life and you’re keeping your head down and you’re super scared of pivoting and change, and I’m talking to myself, I’m talking to everyone when I say that, that like, you’ll look up and you’re like, ah, dang, this ain’t it. This ain’t it. And I’ve kind of pigeonholed myself and I’ve locked myself into something that is, is not going to succeed because the world has changed.

Um, and I haven’t given myself a chance to live or be inspired to do things maybe a little differently. 

Akua: Oh, love that so much. And I think that, oh, that is such an important thing, right? Like you have to, I say this all the time and I’m gonna keep saying that we’re more than our business, right? Like, how are you living your life?

How are you leaning into the things that bring you joy? How are you spending your time with the people that matter most to you? Right? Because it’s true. Like, we’re all different. when you are fulfilled in that way, like it’s easier for you to innovate. It’s easier for you to be creative in your business.

Like how do you prioritize you and who you are, your joys first, and then that’s where it’s like what leads you into having a successful business, not sitting there putting your head down. We’re all Like your business has become your entire personality. I love that so much. And I think it’s just a good reminder for business owners that you are more than your business.

So get out there and live your life because that is how you create a successful business. So love that. Oh, thank you so much for Christina. I have loved this conversation for those that want to connect with you. How can we support you? Tell us where we can find you. 

Christina: Sure, so you can find me the easiest way and the easiest to spell would be runandtellthat.

co. From there you can get to my LinkedIn and Instagram, but if you do want to go figure out where my Instagram is, it’s at Christina T. With four E’s because there’s a lot of Christina T’s and Torres is out there. It’s like the Jane Smith of the Latin world. So there’s a lot of Christina Torres is out there.

Um, and yeah, that’s where you can find me run and tell that. co. 

Akua: Oh, I even love the name run and tell that honey. Okay. Okay. 

Christina: That’s right. Run and tell that that we’re here. Yes. Yes. 

Akua: Oh my gosh. I have loved this conversation. Thank you so much for being here and for everybody listening until next time. That ends our episode of the independent business podcast.

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